Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

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Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  pyrot53 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:07 am

New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!


This will be a new section that will discuss strategy in the Naruto CCG from commonly overlooked plays to extremely complicated ones that you may not have ever though of. Today I will discuss the new rule change that comes with set 19 "Path of Pain" and how it can effect the current meta.

Today's preview has been posted, please see the following link: http://www.bandaicg.com/naruto/showthread.php?p=1186071#post1186071

With Set 19, card effects have a cost and must be paid to be added to the Chain. For most cards the template will follow:

1) Timing (EOJ, Mission Phase, Start/End of turn)
2) You can, (effect cost)
3) "In that case," or "Then,"

Discuss and enjoy!

This new rule change has drastically changed the game, there is no doubt about it. Bandai did this fairly prematurely but we are at the whim of the playtester. We play by their rules whether we like it or not. But do you really understand how its changed the game?

Some examples of the cost of a ninja effect are Naruto [True Allies] (both of them), Gamakichi, Shion (awakened), Shikamaru [Chivalrous], Tayuya [Cursed Flute], Asuma [The Will of Fire], Itachi [Goal] and obviously the new Third Hokage just to name a few in the "Block Format". With the inclusion of this rule the interactions with these cards has most definitely changed. In order to activate these effects you have to discard a card, discard 2 battle rewards, move your ninja to the bottom of your deck, flip over a battle reward, discard 2 chakra, or remove from game 7 cards from the top of your deck. Some of these effects are hefty costs to pay when they may not have any benefits.

I will start by grouping these effects. Cards that activate during your opponents mission phase, during your mission phase, or during the exchange of jutsu.

Cards That Activate During Your Mission Phase

Of the cards I have listed, the ones that activate during your mission phase are Naruto, Gamakichi, and Shion. Some of these effects are the most risky with this new rule. The price to activate Naruto and Gamakichi are giving up valuable resources in this game. Discarding a card from your hand or 2 of the battle rewards you have earned is a big price to pay for possibly having no effect. These two cards are probably the most risky to play as they are the easiest to negate. With the already popularly used Comparative Strength it becomes even better. Negating one of those two effects is already a common play with Comparative Strength and one of the many reasons it is either sideboarded or mainboraded. However, now if you negate these effects your opponent is still going to minus from activating these as well as not getting the desired effect. Cards like Comparative Strength,Dehydration, and Kankuro's Puppet Show have definitely increased in playability due to this new rule change.

Another card effect that activates during your mission phase is Shion (Awakened), but the way she interacts is completely different than Naruto or Gamakichi. She in fact has become even better. Commonly people have feared the activation of Shion and possibly negated it with cards like the above 3 or Shikamaru [Chivalrous], but now you cannot negate what isn't there. The cost of activating Shion's effect is to remove her from the game. Once she is activated she is immediately removed from the game. You cannot target cards that are removed from the game with any of the aforementioned cards. This new ruling essentially makes Shion impossible to negate. This has definitely also increased her playability and the ability for her to stop cards like Tayuya and Shikamaru after they have activated their effects is a very strong ability.

Cards That Activated During Your Opponents Mission Phase

These cards, Tayuya and Shikamaru, have always been unstoppable by cards like Comparative Strength, Kankuros Puppet Show, and Dehydration, but they do have a bit of a new way to play with this new rule change. Commonly to get around Shikamaru you would have to bate the usage of Shion as it is one of the only ways to get around him. Now with this ruling change, if Shion is activated you have already payed the cost to do the negating. Having to flip down just 1 battle reward is not that hefty of a price, and Im well aware of that, but it can become the difference between winning and losing a game. If you are playing against someone who meticulously plans each and every move, he may have just tricked you into flipping that battle reward down just so that now you are unable to use Asuma's effect, thus allowing them to snag the game away. With cards like Tayuya the cost to activate her effect becomes a little more extreme. With the current rules, if your opponent had Shion out you would just make them activate Shion's effect to kill your Tayuya after your activation to negate their mission, and either it would resolve with no harm done to you are you would react with Comparative Strength or Dehydration. With these new rule changes not only would you lose 2 chakra if Shion chains her effect to Tayuya, you now cannot chain to Shion's effect. Essentially, if your opponent has Shion in play, it is either going to force you not to activate your Tayuya, or cost you 2 chakra to get rid of the Shion and your own Tayuya.


Cards That Activate During The Exchange of Jutsu


The use of effects that activate during the exchange of jutsu have commonly been used as jutsu without the costs. With this new rule you now have to pay the costs to these effects just as if they were a built in jutsu. Ninja effects have commonly been the way you start chains. You generally had nothing to lose by activating them, as you could just as easily fail the usage if you deem it no longer necessary. Well with cards like Itachi and Asuma being commonly played cards these last several sets this new rule change can probably be said to effect these cards the most. It could be said that this rule change was made specifically for these kind of cards as the card that sparked this change was The Third Hokage with an effect similar to that of Itachi and Asuma. His effect would have been an extremely powerful one without this rule change and would have been a very good card. I honestly dont think this change was necessary to change how we play the game but it was done essentially to reduce the playability of this new Third Hokage. Before the rule change, you would always be able to damage or kill a ninja before any of your opponents jutsus went off. Sure that is a very good effect but it does also have a cost. With this rule change, however, the cost is payed upon activation, thus essentially allowing you to only activate the effect once or twice throughout the course of the game and you are no longer able to chain over the use of other effects or jutsus.

This new rule change essentially makes you have to think ahead before activation. Think what ninja do you expect for your opponent use to negate your effects or jutsus and you want to not target that ninja with your first effects or jutsus then respond to them with something that will remove the ninja that is responding to your initial effect thus allowing for you to remove one ninja than damage or remove the first targeted ninja. Complicated? It shouldnt be. Just think ahead of your plays and make sure that you can cause the most damage as possible. Try and be able to predict your opponents next move and use that to your advantage. With the inclusion of costs added to ninja effects they are a lot harder to bait out the chain and are essentially just an added jutsu. They will still be powerful effects in the meta but people will no longer activate them just to cause the opponent to start the chain.


Don't forget to comment! Tell me what you liked, tell me what you didn't and tell me what you want to see. Thanks for reading!


Last edited by pyrot53 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  hakuyou on Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:52 am

personally I like this change, it makes people think more before they do something and makes the game a little more balanced

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Shikamaru_Of_Hebi #1 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:57 pm

hakuyou wrote:personally I like this change, it makes people think more before they do something and makes the game a little more balanced
stfu .............
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  pyrot53 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:48 am

Clarified:

Put into play effects are activated effects that do NOT use this new rule. Saves TA's ass.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  The_Sixth_Prong on Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:08 am

I still don't get half of this shit, which is why I'm glad my local's chunin won't use Set 19 (or this ruling that comes with it).
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Shino'sDad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:48 pm

The_Sixth_Prong wrote:I still don't get half of this shit, which is why I'm glad my local's chunin won't use Set 19 (or this ruling that comes with it).


This is why you're also most likely terrible at this game.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  The_Sixth_Prong on Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 pm

Shino'sDad wrote:
The_Sixth_Prong wrote:I still don't get half of this shit, which is why I'm glad my local's chunin won't use Set 19 (or this ruling that comes with it).


This is why you're also most likely terrible at this game.

So what if I'm a terrible player? I was mainly getting at the fact that there is A LOT of room for confusion in this new rule change.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  pyrot53 on Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:25 pm

Shino'sDad wrote:
The_Sixth_Prong wrote:I still don't get half of this shit, which is why I'm glad my local's chunin won't use Set 19 (or this ruling that comes with it).


This is why you're also most likely terrible at this game.

No there really is a lot of room for confusion just like the TA ruling where this rule doesnt apply. One would naturally assume that kind of stuff would apply.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:39 pm

So what is the current ruling with the TA Ninjas? They have to discard their card or no before added to the Chain?

That would seem like a cost to me, but if it's not, then yeah, it's just another reason why I'm a bit iffy on the rule change in regards to Ninja Effects and other effects not properly being styled right for this new change in game-play.

o_O

Anyways, personally, I'm half n' half on this idea. I love it and think that's how all cards should be played and thought it was that way from the start. But then Naruto cards can be different and weird. haha.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Zero on Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:57 pm

Its not a cost because the discard search effect is not an activated ability. Costs only apply to activated abilities.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  visserac88 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:56 pm

as zero said, ta stays the same. I wouldn't mind some more swof shenanigans however...
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am

I'm a bit confused at this.

Naruto Uzumaki WOF isn't an activated ability? So, it's for sure an optional PiP effect, right? So wouldn't you have to activate it?

What defines an activated ability? This is why I'm a bit like, bleh on this topic, because a lot of cards seem to have the same wording but are ruled differently,
or a lot of cards have different wordings but ruled the same, haha x)


Btw, really nice article Thomas. Good layout and range of coverage ^.^

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  VSA on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:43 am

Suunnny_Day wrote:I'm a bit confused at this.

Naruto Uzumaki WOF isn't an activated ability? So, it's for sure an optional PiP effect, right? So wouldn't you have to activate it?

What defines an activated ability? This is why I'm a bit like, bleh on this topic, because a lot of cards seem to have the same wording but are ruled differently,
or a lot of cards have different wordings but ruled the same, haha x)


Btw, really nice article Thomas. Good layout and range of coverage ^.^

Naruto Uzumaki N815

By looking up the card on the site, you can see the effects were split. The first effect is a put in play effect. The second effect is an activated ability. If you need a refresher, take a peek into my article (Path of Pain (Rules Changes), I clearly explain how the rule works).
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  bunnyslayer on Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:34 pm

I really dislike the rule change at the moment because it doesn't seem to work well with many of the other cards in block. though I'm sure things will be much better next block.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  pyrot53 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:42 pm

VSA wrote:
Suunnny_Day wrote:I'm a bit confused at this.

Naruto Uzumaki WOF isn't an activated ability? So, it's for sure an optional PiP effect, right? So wouldn't you have to activate it?

What defines an activated ability? This is why I'm a bit like, bleh on this topic, because a lot of cards seem to have the same wording but are ruled differently,
or a lot of cards have different wordings but ruled the same, haha x)


Btw, really nice article Thomas. Good layout and range of coverage ^.^

Naruto Uzumaki N815

By looking up the card on the site, you can see the effects were split. The first effect is a put in play effect. The second effect is an activated ability. If you need a refresher, take a peek into my article (Path of Pain (Rules Changes), I clearly explain how the rule works).

It somewhat makes sense now.

Basically any PiP effect has no cost regardless of the effect is what im understanding, regardless of if it seems like a cost (in the case of naruto TA). So if you negate it they dont have to discard.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:32 pm

After reading Tylar's "Comprehensive Rules Change..." article,

I'm super confused now, lol. I don't understand what Zero and VSA are saying now, ahah.

so, this Naruto Uzumaki N-815 WOF, has a Triggered Ability, right. (i'm not looking at the second effect, which is actually an Activated Ability with a cost, yeah?)

It's an effect that says "When this is deployed, you can discard a card." "In the case, etc."

As it looks like to me, it fits perfectly into a Triggered Effect, just like the Tsunade that Tylar gives as an example with a Triggered Effect.

Is there a ruling somewhere that says the mentioned Naruto isn't a Triggered Ability with Cost? Because unless I'm super missing something (which I apologize for then cuz i'm a super dork), he fits perfect into that template? =/

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  JaMa on Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:51 pm

Suunnny_Day wrote:so, this Naruto Uzumaki N-815 WOF, has a Triggered Ability, right. (i'm not looking at the second effect, which is actually an Activated Ability with a cost, yeah?)

Yes, you're exactly right. His first effect is Trigger and his second effect is Activated. Only activated effects' costs must be paid when put on the chain. Naruto 815 as an example, if his first effect is responded to and negated you don't have to discard the card from your hand; but if the second effect is responded to and negated you'd still discard the card from the top of your deck.

Put in play effects (even optional ones) = Trigger Ability
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:08 pm

Sorry, I don't mean to be so persistent in this in an annoying way if it seems like it, lol.

But with the new thread that Tylar posted regarding the Rules Changes,

http://www.bandaicg.com/naruto/showthread.php?p=1190506#post1190506


it seems like even Triggered Abilities may have Costs that must be paid before adding to the Chain with what Tylar was saying, his example being

http://www.bandaicg.com/naruto/cardlists_detail.php?c=n997#card


I actually believe that by Tylar's templates, both of Naruto's effects are abilities that have a Cost that must be met before adding the effect onto the current Chain, =/ Man, what am I not getting, lol. x)

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  The_Sixth_Prong on Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:20 pm

Suunnny_Day wrote:Sorry, I don't mean to be so persistent in this in an annoying way if it seems like it, lol.

But with the new thread that Tylar posted regarding the Rules Changes,

http://www.bandaicg.com/naruto/showthread.php?p=1190506#post1190506


it seems like even Triggered Abilities may have Costs that must be paid before adding to the Chain with what Tylar was saying, his example being

http://www.bandaicg.com/naruto/cardlists_detail.php?c=n997#card


I actually believe that by Tylar's templates, both of Naruto's effects are abilities that have a Cost that must be met before adding the effect onto the current Chain, =/ Man, what am I not getting, lol. x)

As far as I knew, abilites with "can" and "in that case" were activated abilities.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  JaMa on Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Suunnny_Day wrote:I actually believe that by Tylar's templates, both of Naruto's effects are abilities that have a Cost that must be met before adding the effect onto the current Chain, =/ Man, what am I not getting, lol. x)

Ah, you're right. I guess they "changed" it again by including Trigger effects. So, (and if others disagree they can chime in whenever) the cost must be paid for Trigger and Activated effects. Costs are only present if the effect you paid the cost for uses the phrase "In that case, ...".

Thus, a negated Tsunade can still heal your ninja and you still must discard a card from your hand for Naruto 815.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:16 pm

Tony, I think Activated abilities are those that have a certain timing [for instance whatever phase], and you can choose to do them when.

while Triggered abilities are those that are "triggered" when something occurs, like when the Ninja is Deployed, or when something else happens, then you can do such and such.

JaMa thanks for understanding man, lol. So have they changed it since then? gosh, i really, really, hope this stuff all just works out in the end and it goes smoothly, which it should.

It just'll be difficult for me to explain to new players now lol, that such and such has cost, because of the way it's worded here, and such and such doesn't because it doesn't, lol.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  The_Sixth_Prong on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:46 pm

Suunnny_Day wrote:Tony, I think Activated abilities are those that have a certain timing [for instance whatever phase], and you can choose to do them when.

while Triggered abilities are those that are "triggered" when something occurs, like when the Ninja is Deployed, or when something else happens, then you can do such and such.

JaMa thanks for understanding man, lol. So have they changed it since then? gosh, i really, really, hope this stuff all just works out in the end and it goes smoothly, which it should.

It just'll be difficult for me to explain to new players now lol, that such and such has cost, because of the way it's worded here, and such and such doesn't because it doesn't, lol.

I think I get it now.
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Zero on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:44 pm

What I was saying made sense, because thats how it works in other games. Apparently in this game Triggered abilities are given costs too, which defeats the purpose of differentiation between them and activated abilities -_-
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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  Suunnny_Day on Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:53 pm

Zero, I think what y'all had been saying makes sense too, that Triggered Abilities don't have Costs, while an Activated Ability does.

But yeah, just from what I was reading, and then putting it together with y'all were saying, got me totally confused, ahah.

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Re: Strategy Article "New Rule Change: Ninja Effects Have Costs!"

Post  visserac88 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:53 pm

......I don't get it teacher.....
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